A Salute to

Michael Collins Piper


Carolyn Yeager interviews Dr. Ray Goodwin

The Heretics Hour


June 5, 2015



Please also see Carolyn Yeager's web page:

"Salute to Michael Collins Piper, 1960-2015"
at: http://carolynyeager.net/salute-michael-collins-piper-1960-2015
for the free MP3 download liink to this interview



Transcript created by
William B. Fox


Carolyn Yeager: [1:05 in, following introductory music titled Emperor's Waltz] Welcome listeners to a special edition of the Heretics Hour to remember Michael Collins Piper who passed away last Saturday, May 30th, in Couer d'Alene, Idaho. Today's date is June 4, 2015. I am your host Carolyn Yeager. With me today to help me carry out this sad task is Ray Goodwin, known to all of you, who had a long relationship with Mike Piper. Thanks for being here, Ray.
Ray Goodwin: Well, my pleasure. I appreciate being a part of any kind of memorable tribute to Mike.
Yeager: Well, right. We are going to do our best here. I was just going to bring up here, I don't know if you have been following the news, I keep looking for new information about his passing, but I have not found anything new on the Ugly Truth, on Mark Glenn's site, which is of course where Mike was living up there in Idaho. For how long had he been there, Ray, with Mark?
Goodwin: He had been there a few months, Carolyn, I can't remember exactly when he moved out there, but he had been up there I would say probably a year.
Yeager: A year? Well, yes, that is a long time. How do you know about how he was doing there? He had a nice situation staying in the guest house on their property which kept him a part of the family. It looks like from that one picture that Mark posted on his site, which I used on my site, that he took his meals with them, unless he for any reason didn't want to. Something like that. So he was in good hands and in good company, but he was still struggling.
Goodwin: That is correct. Yes, he was quite despondent over losing his job with the American Free Press. You know he could not afford to stay there in D.C. or Tel Aviv West as I call it. But Mark offered him lodging and to come out and live there. Mike took him up on it and left most of his library and possessions and things like that stored in DC, and went on out to live with the Mark Glenn family in their guest house. Mike was having trouble getting around. Bad leg. He was having to use a wheel chair, quite often. So he was quite despondent, you know. He felt like, he told me, he said "My career is over." I kept telling him, "Hey, Mike, you are a young fellow. You have got a lot more to contribute. You have contributed so much already. You have so much talent and wisdow and knowledge stored in that brain of yours, and I want you to keep sharing it with us." He would just say, "Well, I am afraid its over for me." He was quite despondent.
Yeager: Well, you know Ray, he was in pain. Physically his body was giving up and had too many pressures on it or challenges. I know that he had diabetes. It had gotten bad and destroyed a lot of the nerves in his feet, and that is why his feet hurt so much and he didn't walk. I think that is why he used a wheel chair.
Goodwin: That's right.
Yeager: I don't know about the legs, but the legs could be a part of that too, so it was not just that. He actually was in a lot of pain. So when you are facing that, you know. He can't really bring himself back again if his body is not going to respond or cooperate. That happened to him at such a young age, really. But some of it was his own doing, and maybe his own negligence. But I was reading some emails from him. I have quite a number of them here to refer to if necessary. He at one point was saying that he told me that this happened to him overnight. He woke up, it is like he woke up one morning, he did not say that, but he said, overnight, suddenly, without warning, all of a sudden he could hardly walk. I found that kind of strange. I do not know how it could be that it could be so sudden. Maybe it just felt sudden to him. But I do not think it could be over night that he would be fine and then be in such bad shape. But it is possible, because I don't think he tells lies or anything, so --. [5:19]
Goodwin: Well, it is true. You know, you combine that with the fact, I mean his physical side is what he is talking about. And then you combine that with the fact he felt betrayal there at AFP about his job and the way he was being treated. So you combine that physical stress and duress with the mental. And you know Mike was paying so much attention to the mental side, trying to keep his job there, and trying to keep them, ask them not to cut his pay and everything, well you know he probably did not even notice, as hard as that may seem, that his physical side was deteriorating, as it was. And then: Bang! He wakes up to it one day, he starts thinking about it, "Oh my gosh, I can't hardly get around. My feet, my legs." I had a sister that died of diabetes, at age 30. She was born in 1941 and they found out when she was five years old that she had that, and the doctors at John Sealey in Galveston told my folks that she would be lucky to reach her 25th birthday. Because back then they could not deal with type 1 diabetes as they can now. My sister died shortly after her 30th birthday. But she was facing things like possible amputation of a foot. Her sight was going down. Her kidneys were starting to fail. So I understand with that diabetes, that is the first thing I thought of when Mike told me that his feet and legs were bothering him. I felt this sounds like diabetics to me. And it was very sad, as we will get to talking about in a little bit, even sadder in this whole mess, was that all within a week or so of his death, things had turned around for him. His spirits were lifted, he was feeling better, his attitude had got good. I was so pleased, I was thrilled to death. And bing! apparently this coronary hit him and took him, but that was such a shame, because he had already talked to me about, `Yes, you know," he said, "I have got enough money now I can move into this apartment I have found. I have got enough money to cover me for six months." He said, "After that I really have to start scrambling." But that was before he found out that that he was granted his Social Security disability. [7:49]
Yeager: Yes, why don't you tell that story about that from a little further back. He had been trying to get Social Security disability and he had been turned down. All these things seemed so negative to him. He did not see much hope. But yet you told me that he did not even realize that had come through right before he died.
Goodwin: That is right, and you know, having been through that process myself, after two back operations, one in 1985, one in 1995, well I applied for Social Security disability, Gosh, it took me over two years to get it, and they turned me down and I appealed it, and they turned that down and I appealed it again. I got one of those people, I guess you see it advertised on TV, to fight for you. It did not cost me an arm and a leg, because I sure did not have that, so this fellow went with me to the meetings with the Social Security rep. So they finally granted that to me, and that is what Mike was fighting. He had been turned down a time or two. He had just about given up. I told him, "You keep on fighting, boy," because that could mean quite a difference to you in your monthly income. He did, he kept on fighting. I don't know if Mike was aware right before he died that his disability had been approved or not. You know, if he knew that before he died, it was not very long because it had not been that long, you know, that they granted it to him. But that is why the last time I talked to him was probably, let's see, he died on Saturday, I talked to him about the previous Sunday. Maybe six or seven days before that. The difference in his voice, it was wonderful to hear. [9:35]
Yeager: Oh really?
Goodwin: Yes, and he wasn't dwelling on the negative. He talked about his personal library and the problems. What he was going to do with that. How he was going to have to get rid of it, and all, and it was not in a maudlin sense. It was like this was just one of the things unfortunately a person is going to have to do. If you can't find somebody who wants them, my books and all, he was talking about finding an apartment, and he would be starting to move his things in there, what things he still had out at Mark Glenn's, and a few there at his motel. He was pleased that he had found a place and he was going to be able to live there alone, and things were looking up for him. He said that he had heard from several friends, and people who had read his books and everything. They had responded to this letter he sent them. He sent it out to a lot of people, you know, about his predicament, and asking for some help. He got some donations, and even Mark Glenn said, "I am so proud for Mike because he has heard from a lot of people, and some of them have been generous, and it has enabled him to look for a place that he could afford." And that is the sadness of it all, that the heart attack took him, because everything was turning to the positive. [10:53]
Yeager: Yes, well I think though, that makes me happy that he was feeling better. You know, I am glad that even if he did, you know, his time was set in a sense, at least he had some period of upbeat, and he was not in some deep dark hole at the end.
Goodwin: That is exactly right.
Yeager: So that is really good news. I did not realize that Ray, and I am happy to hear that. But I think the way I understood it from what you said it yesterday, that Mark Glenn said that the social security had come through, but that Mike did not know that, was not informed of that yet.
Goodwin: Yes, I was not sure if --
Yeager: You were not sure, yes --
Goodwin: -- If Mike had been informed or not, but I did not think he had, you know, from the way that Mark stated it. But he may have been informed, and I hope he was, really.
Yeager: Well yes, it wasn't like he was like saying "I give up, to hell with it all, and good bye." No, he was actually looking forward to it, he was still fighting it, he was still trying to do everything that he could do. He was seeing hope. So that is really good news.
Goodwin: Oh yes, and you know, what anybody needs in their life, this goes back to a quote that I heard, well I guess it was in the late 1950's, an interview -- and they showed it on television -- an interview of Elvis Pressley, who was 23 at the time. This interviewer was saying, "Well, Elvis, you have got the world by the tail. You have got all these gals crazy about you, you have this, that, and the other." And he said, "Are you happy." Elvis said, "Well, I guess that depends on your definition of happiness." And the interviewer said, "I guess so." He said, "Well Elvis, what is your definition of happiness?" And his words for a 23 year old kid at the time always stuck with me. Elvis responded: "Happiness is having something to look forward to."
Yeager: Oh gosh, that is right, that is pretty wise, isn't it? [Laughter].
Goodwin: Yes, that is it, because when you are despondent, you have nothing to look forward to, you feel like there is no reason to hang around this joint. When Mike got that new something to look forward to, it was something different for him, because believe me, my conversations and emails with him for maybe three months before this, the only thing he said, "The only reason I am hanging around here, Ray, is my companion, is old Kitty Kat Donald," who was 18 years old. And he said, "Donald has been my buddy for so long," and he said, "I don't want to leave him alone, and all." He said that, "It keeps me going, realizing that I need to take care of my cat." One thing he did, he asked Mark Glenn, he said "Hey, Mark, if anything happens to me, would you promise me to take care of Donald." Mark said, "Absolutely, sure will." You know, that gave Mike a little reassurance. But as I say, those conversations, a month or two or three before Mike passed on were usually always of a negative "I have no reason to go on" nature. I would tell him, you know, "Hey, Mike, tomorrow something may turn around for you. Next week somebody may call you and say `Hey, come to so and so country and give a speech, we will pay your way'," all this stuff. I said, "You have got a lot of people out there that--"
Yeager: Yes, but he knew that if he had to, how difficult that would be. You can say those things, but if he can hardly walk, he had a lot of pain in his feet, he said it was so painful just to walk, and so he didn't walk, getting around places. But anyway, this is good, speaking about his despondency, I think we really have to talk a little bit about what happened at American Free Press, and why he was so, well, there were two things, yes, he lost his job, and it was kind of shocking to all of us that he would actually lose his job there
Goodwin: That's right.
Yeager: That they would fire him or let him go, or whatever happened. Somebody who had been a part of that for so long. The other thing was his poor health, his health problems. [14:57]
Goodwin: That's right.
Yeager: So when people are, you might say, disabled like that, sometimes other people don't want them around, particularly if they are paying them or whatever. "Well we don't need this guy any more." But it seems so cold. So, you know, I don't want to attack those people, and I certainly don't want to attack the Cartos, but he had started attacking them. I got some things. I did not get the last things. He did not send me those last things he sent out. But oh, a year ago, we were emailing about something. He was angry with me, we were going back and forth. [Laughter]. It was pretty interesting, because it just shows the kind of guy he is. He is always ready to forgive and go forward, you know, with something. But he was angry at Willis' wife, Elisabeth.
Goodwin: That is right. That is exactly right.
Yeager: He expressed a lot of things at that time, and then I guess it got worse as time went on.
Goodwin: [Muttering "yes"].
Yeager: So what do you know about that, Ray? [15:53]
Goodwin: Well, just what Mike shared with me. I don't feel it is out of place to say things about this now because, hey, it is true and Mike is gone, and it doesn't serve to try to try to attack or damage somebody. But the reason Mike started having problems at AFP was because of Willis Carto's wife Elisabeth. Mike told me some of the things that she would do. She was trying to run the whole show up there, and he said that Willis, in all honesty, due to his age, was starting to get a little bit forgetful about things, and that the more he became that way, the more dominant Elisabeth became in telling him how to run the American Free Press. Mike said that she went into him one day and said "We don't need Piper any more, you know, his salary is such, we can save money by getting rid of Mike. Willis' reaction was to not really accede to her demands, but he had to placate her some way, so he said, "Well, I will tell you what, we will cut his salary in half, and have him come in less time," and things like this. Willis went to Mike with that and of course it was crushing for Mike. They cut his salary, they cut his time. He said it reached the point where "I really couldn't survive." He said "I tried to fight for it and talk to Willis," and things like this. Mike had devoted so many years of service to the Cartos.
Yeager: Oh yes.
Goodwin: His book-writing and things like this brought them a tremendous increase in readership. He just kind of felt a sense of betrayal. And as I said, he told me, you know, he said, "You know, Ray, Willis has his faults and everything," but he said, "I am not blaming him for this at his advanced age, and all, and he is losing a little bit of his mental sharpness." But, he said, "Elisabeth --," he did not have any kind words for her and her behavior. So that put him in a real tail spin. He realized he had to start looking for another way to survive. That is how he wound up out there with Mark Glenn, because his health would not allow him to take another job, [with] his limitations in getting around. He applied for his social security disability back then at that time. They would turn him down. He was fighting for it then. He needed that increase, monthly increase, to survive. And that kind of put him in his tail spin. He felt like "Wow, I just can't do anything. I am not any good to anybody any more." So he took Donald and when Mark offered his place to him out there, he felt like he had no other option, but he was happy to have that one, of course, because Mark is such a good friend, they have a wonderful family. So he moved out there to Northern Idaho.
Yeager: And not only that, I understand that Mark and another fellow drove from Northern Idaho, I think it is Northern, isn't it?
Goodwin: Yes, very much.
Yeager: -- To Washington, D.C. and hauled all kinds of stuff of Mike's along with Mike and his cat back to Idaho. It took a long time, and it was a big job, so he has been a fantastic friend. I can not imagine a more fantastic friend than Mark Glenn.
Goodwin: That's right.
Yeager: Of course they had been friends for so long.
Goodwin: Sure.
Yeager: So, you know, I see Mark, he is, that is a real Christian. You know, there are a lot of Christians who really take their Christianity seriously.
Goodwin: They walk the walk and talk the talk.
Yeager: They do, they do. They do things a lot of people wouldn't do. "That is too much for me, find some help somewhere else," or something, but--.
Goodwin: That is right, and Mark was in the same position as I regarding how we came to know Mike and owing so much to him for allowing our voices to be heard and encouraging us to write things and speak and everything like this. He helped Mark Glenn get his start.
Yeager: Sure, yes, that is right.

Goodwin: For me, he felt like I had a lot of things that would be beneficial for people to hear. He kept encouraging me, to "Hey, send in an article to Barnes Review." "Would you consider being a guest speaker," at such a place and all. He was so encouraging. It came at a time in my life that it was extremely beneficial to me. So I go back to when I first met Mike Piper in 2005, but I had conversed with him before that for, for I don't know how many years, three or four or five years, whatever, but --. [20:42]
Yeager: When was it that you first, tell that story now, you know, how did you first come in contact with Mike? What happened?
Goodwin: OK, as a subscriber to the American Free Press I would read it diligently every week. They started advertising this book about the JFK assassination. And I had devoted many, many years of study and research into that. Took a trip to Dallas, walked over the whole area, and read various books about the assassination. I was always looking for something of a scholarly nature that I felt may offer a little more information. They started advertising Mike's book Final Judgment, by Michael Collins Piper. And it says, the subtitle was, "The missing link in the JFK assassination." All along in my mind I felt that the missing link had to be those who control our media, and I knew who that was. And so I felt like there was a definite Mossad or Israeli connection to the assassination -- Jewish connection. So I ordered Mike's book. It was a very, very documented book, sometimes to the point of being tedious, but he had to do that so that somebody could not say, "You just pulled this out of a hat. You just made this up." But Mike would always cite his sources, diligently footnoting. I read that book, and I was blown away because it was exactly what had been in my mind for all those years. So I wrote a letter to Mike at AFP and I congratulated him on a wonderful work. I told him that I was teaching American history at our local college, and that I devoted one class session to that assassination. I told him that I was using his book as the definitive truth source about the murder of JFK. I would take seven or eight books in there, and Mike's would always be the last one I would talk to them about. I told him this was the very best one. If you want an idea or a more complete picture of the murder of John Kennedy, it is Mike Piper's book. Well, that really blew Mike away. You know, he, in a speech he gave out in Arizona, he said "Hey, there is this history professor over in Texas, and he uses my book in his class as the definitive source." And he was proud of that, and I was overwhelmed that meant so much to him. So that is how Mike and I then started communicating. When I got the computer and all that stuff then we started emailing, he started telling me, "Ray, you need to write an article for the Barnes Review."
Yeager: Yes, but what about the books he sent you. How they got stolen from the library?
Goodwin: Yes, yes, yes. When I told Mike how pleased I was with the book, and I was using it in my classes, well, one evening I had an evening class when I taught this, and one or two of my students said, "Hey, Mr. Goodwin, where can I get this book? Do we have it here in our college library?" And I said, "No, I don't think it is over there," but I said, "I will tell you what, I will make sure it gets put in over there." Oh, they were pleased, because they did want to read it. So I sent a message to Mike. I said, "Mike, would you send me a book for our local Victoria College library. I want to register it and have it available on shelf for the students there." And I mean immediately, as quick as he could get them here, Mike sent me three books, three copies of Final Judgment. They were the new sixth edition, the biggest and best so far, and he had written a note in one of them to me, "Best wishes, Ray," and all this stuff. So I took one of them to the library, and as a member of the adjunct faculty, well, you know all I had to do was show my credentials. I said, "I want to register this book, and get it on the shelves for students." The libarian said, "Sure, sure, we'll take care of that." So I left out of there, and the next time my class met, I told my students that the book was available in the library. A week later, when we met again, two of my students said, "Hey, I went by to check out that book, they had written down Mike's name and the name of the book, and they said that they couldn't find it. It was unavailable. So I went over to the library and asked about it, "Where is it?" They said, "We don't know, we can't find it." So I went home, and I got another copy of it, and I took it up there. I said, "Look, register this again please, put it on the shelves, because there are students here that want to read it." "OK." Well, the very next week, the same students, "No Sir, they don't have it, they don't have it." So I go over there again, "Well, we don't know what happened to it, it is gone." So, all that did was affirm what I already knew was going on, on college campuses everywhere, and that was denying people to read things that the "Chosen" don't want you to read. So that was an experience for me that filled me with anger and all and resentment at the way they give this, "Oh, academic freedom and a free flow of ideas," yeah, but only if it has the kosher stamp of approval.
Yeager: Did you tell Mike that, that his books were removed?
Goodwin: Yes, yes.
Yeager: I'll bet that made him mad. You see, things like that, you get enough of that, it builds up, you have a real case against these perpetrators.
Goodwin: Well you see Mike, at about that time, that is when students at either the University of Arizona or Arizona State University, history majors and all, had a club there, and they wanted to feature speakers on the JFK murder, and there were like four authors that they wanted to invite to lecture about their books and their conclusions on the assassination. Mike was one of them. He was thrilled. He told me, he said, "I am going out there to Arizona to give a talk." When the club, and I think it was at Arizona State, published their flier, "Hey, attend a lecture hall at such and such a night, we are going to have speakers on the JFK murder," and they listed them, and of course Mike's name was on there. Well, that is when the local Jew boys went into action, and went to Arizona State's president and told him "You can't have that guy here. He is anti-semitic, he is a Jew-hater, he is a racist," and all this stuff. So the President, naturally, and the board, as they do, knuckled under to the Jewish influence. They told that history club, "You can't do this on university property." The students fought it, they were mad. They said, "Where is this stuff about free flow of ideas, and hearing what people have to say, even if you don't agree with them." "Well, we can't have that here on the campus." So those enterprising students sent letters to everybody, authors, telling them that, "We are sorry, but the university officials won't let us do this." And these authors had already arranged for their flights out there and everything, and anyway, one enterprising student said, "Hey, they said we can't have it on campus, but why don't we try to find a hall somewhere here where we can have it?" They wound up getting a hall of some sort. I don't know if it was a VFW, American Legion, some kind of hall. Mike was pleased with that. He went on out there, the audience was reduced, it was going to be mostly Arizona State students, but anyway, there was a big enough audience. Mike went out there and gave his talk anyway.
Yeager: Good for him
Goodwin: Yes, but that was an example he used to me. He said, "Ray, this is is the same kind of intimidation and mind control that these people exercise everywhere." They should try to shut him down and stop him, but he went out there and gave his talk anyway.
Yeager: Yes, well he did everything he could to promote that book. He knew that was his major achievement.
Goodwin: That is exactly right.
Yeager: He really worked hard all the way through to push his book. It is terrible when you get so much power pushing back and trying to deny the work that you have done there. The work that he did. But tell us about the book that he dedicated to you and how that came about.
Goodwin: Yes, you know Mike has written several books. A lot of them deal with the power of the Chosen around the world and the influence that they exert. Mike wrote this book called the Caiaphas Complex, referring to the Jewish high priests of Biblical times. Underneath the title of the book, on the cover it says, "An unsettling, unexpurgated exploration of the dark side of the power structure that misrules America and our world today." He sent me maybe three copies of it. I thought, "Well, that is a good deal." I will read this as soon as I can get to it. Then I open this book up, and right after his title page, the book is first U.S. printing, May of 2012, so that will give you an idea when that is when I got it. I mean right on the back side of his title page, there is a picture of me when I was giving my talk at the "No More War for Israel" Conference. He has really, really, honoring words to me beneath that picture. He says, "More voices like this one are needed." And then he goes into a description of me, just really wonderful words. He dedicated the book to me, even a page or two later, he made reference to me again in this little short paragraph. He said, "Ray Goodwin of Texas, whose visage accompanies this dedication, is one such individual who has risked much by speaking out, and he is one individual whom I admire immensely. So I have singled him out in these pages, but there are, thank God, others out there like Ray and they are too numerous to mention, but Ray is definitely one of those people whose important individual efforts really count." And you know, so I was blown away. [31:02]
Yeager: I'll bet. And you did not know until you received the book?
Goodwin. No, that is right, I did not know it.
Yeager: I'll bet it was just a shock.
Goodwin: I called him to thank him. I said, "Mike, I was blown away by that." And he said, "Well, you shouldn't be." He said, "You are truly deserving of this." So that was just another one of those things about Mike. He got me two speaking engagements, one of them in Washington, D.C., and the other one out in Los Angeles. He gave me an opportunity to meet Frederick Tobin, actually in Washington DC is where I also met Mark Glenn because he was one of the speakers there. But it opened a lot of doors for me. Eustace Mullins, I met Mr. Mullins in D.C. In California I also met Phil Tourney, one of the survivors of the [deliberate Israeli] attack on the U.S.S. Liberty. In fact, Phil's speech, of all of us out there, brought the house down. I mean, it was wonderful. He told us about the attack, what he was doing on the U.S.S. Liberty during the attack. We were all fascinated by this. A lot of people had never even heard of that attack on the Liberty, but Phil did a wonderful job. So you know those things Mike Piper did for me. He enabled me. I would have never have been giving a talk in Washington, D.C. on academic bias. I would have never given a talk in California, in Orange County, on the manipulation of the media, and how words are used to deceive people. I would never have experienced any of that had it not been for Mike Piper.
Yeager: Mike was really good at promoting people that he thought were deserving.
Goodwin: You are right. [32:46]
Yeager: He did quite a bit for me. He would have done more if I was willing to go places and do things. But he was always willing to go places and do things. He went all around the world, and I don't think he turned too many invitations down. So he met Ahmadinijad in Iran. He met, I can't think of his name right now -- [Ed. Note: She probably means former Prime Minister Dr. Mahathir Mohamad].
Goodwin: In Indonesia.
Yeager: Yes, in other places. So, some of his books, how many of his books have you read? I read a few of them, that is all.
Goodwin: Four or five, maybe. Maybe six. But every time he would come out with one I would get it and read it.
Yeager: I said when I did an interview with him in January 2011, I said that he has written ten books. Final Judgment and nine other books. But then he had some more after that. So that is a lot of books. And so he always called himself a hack writer. He could churn them out, that is for sure. He had a good system. I finally figured out from things he said, that he dictated for the most part. He dictated into a microphone, what he wanted to say, his thoughts, and so on. And then I don't think he transcribed it. I think he had somebody transcribe it, and then he worked from that. I thought that was pretty smart, I should do that, start dictating things. One of the books I read was The New Babylon, when he came out with it. That was an important book, I think, because it was kind of an update on The New Jerusalem.
Goodwin: Right.
Yeager: Which was a big book of his. I don't know, I didn't read The New Jerusalem, but I figured it was pretty much the same kind of an idea, but now he called it Babylon. He may have had a little different thoughts about it, but The New Babylon, that was quite brilliant because that was the New World Order that we are living in the West is really like Babylon in the old days. A place of excess and wastefulness and so on.
Goodwin: Well, you know, you mentioning that, Carolyn, I just happened to look up here. I don't have a lot of my books upstairs here. Most of them are in storage down below in my garage, but here is The New Babylon. Mike had written in it, "Best wishes to Ray Goodwin, an articulate voice of sanity in an insane world, MCP, November 29, 1909." Yes, and this book --
Yeager: 1909. [You mean] 2009.
Goodwin: I am sorry, yes, 2009. First printing June of 2009. So yes, that one is definitely one that I have read that is on my shelf.
Yeager: The Judas Goats was a big seller of his, and then The High Priests of War, I remember that one. I took it with me when I traveled back home. I remember my nephew was reading it, sitting around there. But that was a good one, The High Priests of War, and so was The Judas Goats.
Goodwin: Oh, absolutely.
Yeager: Then some others that I am looking at here, Best Witness, about the Mel Mermelstein affair.
Goodwin: Yes.
Yeager: Now I have not read that, but I would like to. I did not even know that he wrote that. I forget some of these things, but I did not know about that one. But I think that Mel Mermelstein case is a very interesting thing. He must be writing about it from the point of view of the Carto [trial with Mermelstein]. [36:19]
Goodwin: That is right. You are right, because I remember when he wrote that, how he really took apart that typical phony holocaust survivor, and took him to task.
Yeager: Yes, the story of what Mel Mermelstein said is what is really interesting to me, but this must be the law suit and so on. Unfortunately Carto lost. [Ed. Note: Actually Willis Carto and his Liberty Lobby made an out of court settlement in regard to the first law suit that Mermelstein brought against them. In the second legal action Mermelstein brought against Liberty Lobby, Carto won the case and was awarded $1.00 in damages by the jury. This is discussed in the 8 June 2015 History Today interview "Paul Angel and Dave Gahery Remember Mike Piper"]. Some of these emails that I was looking at from, oh, July 2013, he was more than chiding. He was complaining that I used, he had heard me use the term "The Carto industry." What is this with "The Carto industry?" RURRURRURR! [Growling like an animal] And I am saying, I was just going to say, "What do you call it? What should you call the Carto empire?" I don't know, but there is such a thing, you know. He oversees a lot, and is responsible for a lot, and has done so much. He is quite the admirable man, Willis Carto. But I think the whole thing is that he has memory problems and I am getting memory problems, so I know how bad that is. He has got them worse, so that is the problem. And somebody has to take over. Unfortunately it is Elisabeth doing it. Well, another book is The Golem, which was a pretty big one.
Goodwin: Oh yes, I read that. Yes, I have read that one.
Yeager: Yes, but he had that spoof he wrote, My First Days in the White House. He was pretending like he became President, what he was going to do. Then he wrote about Traficant, too. He was a big booster of Traficant.
Goodwin: Yes.
Yeager: It was called Target: Traficant. That is only some of it because he has got more. He has got more than that. Well, he was a very prolific writer. He was quite, he worked all the time. Of course as we know, he wasn't married and he didn't have a family, so his family was really the Carto group and what he did there and all of his work.
Goodwin: That's right.
Yeager: And he was so popular, he had such a following. But what I notice Ray, is that, well I notice as I am looking for information, I am looking for notices about him, and they are very slow in coming on the Internet. I have seen a few. They are just picking up, say, what Michael Hoffman published, which was a little bit of a very short obituary type thing. But there still is no further information coming.
Goodwin: Right.
Yeager: And I was just wondering, I imagine that eventually there will be a memorial service, a very nice one I hope, possibly in Washington, D.C. from all his associates there. I would think so, wouldn't you?
Goodwin: Sure, I mean, it is only fitting that be done.
Yeager: But they must be a little bit embarrassed right now, because in this situation the fact is they kind of cut him adrift, although he wasn't actually cut adrift, you are saying. His salary was cut in half. He could not survive on that. I don't know if he was still getting something from them, all the way, even when he went out to Idaho. [39:30]
Goodwin: Well, you know, in addition, they cut his salary in half, and then only a short time after that, they told him that they were going to start paying him per article instead of a salary.
Yeager: OOhhh!
Goodwin: Yes.
Yeager: Ohh!
Goodwin: That was even worse for him.
Yeager: Oh yes, you are not guaranteed of anything.
Goodwin: No, no, and then limiting the number of articles that he could submit to AFP.
Yeager: Who told him these things? Who was it that informed him of this?
Goodwin: He was told that at the paper by Willis, but that was through Elisabeth's doing, and he knew that. He did not blame Willis. But anyway, yes, it was just turning the screw. It was forcing him out. Cut his salary in half, then tell him he is no longer on salary, but they would pay him by the submission of articles, and then that his articles were going to be limited to such and such a length or number of contributions.
Yeager: Well you know one of the reasons, I'll just say, just to give the other side a little bit of benefit here, and not be so hard on him, is that Mike did get his health problems at a young age. So although he had been there since he was in his twenties, so he certainly put in a long period of time, so it was almost like he started young and he was worn out, you know, younger than most people are. but he had still had put in a full career. But I think they didn't want to be burdoned with him, like a retainer or something to look after him. He was too young for social security. I guess he was on [it], he had been paying into that, so therefore, yes, he had that coming. But yes, so this is kind of a, well, he is an example of doing what he felt was right and what he wanted to do for truth and justice, and he paid the price for it. He did not have any security. He thought he had some security, I think, with --
Goodwin: AFP
Yeager: AFP
Goodwin: That's right.
Yeager: But it turned out he didn't.
Yeager: Well I first became aware of Mike not until 2005. You say you, when was it that you first --
Goodwin: Yes, it was 1994. I know maybe I did not buy it immediately, but yes, first published January 1994. So I read it shortly after that. That is when I wrote the letter to Mike, how much I appreciated his work, and that kind of began things for us. But I did not have a computer or anything at that time, and so everything was done by pony express, so to speak. Exchanges between Mike and me started at that time. Around 1995, say.
Yeager: Yes, well you really go back, Ray, and you told me, I asked you when you actually woke up to all this, and you said in the 1960's!
Goodwin: That is correct. Yes, I was about twenty --
Yeager: A lot of people listening, and people involved now, were born --well, even Mike Piper was born in 1960. Amazing!
Goodwin: That's right.
Yeager: So you are already, well, OK, tell us that real quickly, you were listening to what?
Goodwin: Well, I always, the thing that I call the defining moment in my life as a patriot or as an American citizen was not just the murder of John Kennedy, which happened when I was 20, but the cover up. The obstruction thrown out by the politicians and the American media, has to dig into it and tell us what really happened and who is really behind it. Well, that turned me from a flag-waving patriot, because my brother had just joined the Marine Corps and been shipped over to Vietnam, it turned me from that to one full of skepticism about anything the U.S. Government said. So anytime I could get some, what they called at that time underground literature or articles talking about what was really going on, well I would grab them and read them. And I saw an ad for this book called Which Way Western Man? by William Gayley Simpson. I ordered that book, and it was lengthy, but what a fantastic read! That book helped open my eyes to the real power behind the throne or the ones who really pull the strings, the puppeteers themselves. So that opened my eyes to a lot of what was really going on, and it just grew from that point.
Yeager: And then there was Watergate a little bit later on.
Goodwin: 1974.
Yeager: That made me wake up like I woke up later.
Goodwin: Yes, but inbetween Watergate and the JFK murder came the Israeli attack on the U.S.S. Liberty and the cover up for that, June 7, 1968. So yes, it made me very jaded, very skeptical. [44:30]
Yeager: Yes, well that is how this kind of worked its way up, I guess. It was kind of interesting that someone named Bob Hardwidge [spelling?] has contacted me on, oh, a few ocassions. But he wrote to me, just, oh, a week before Mike died, or maybe two weeks, but inbetween there. He was talking about Michael Collins Piper. He wrote some nice things, but this I think is a follow up email that he sent to me, and I want to read a part of it, because he is the one who said he woke up in 1976 and that is what made me think, "Boy, that really goes back." And then you said you went back to the 1960's. It was on May 26th. "I really enjoyed listening to both you and MCP. I would not have found you but for the mention MCP made of your web site both a few years ago on one of his broadcasts." That is my little book, my little booklet. He said, "I got the feeling that you two had parted ways over the past few years. That is too bad, because I feel you complement one another. You delve deep into historical facts and racial ideas while MCP covers the current political situations." Then he said, "While MCP was taking his hiatus from broadcasting, I was listening to some of his shows that I had archived from 2006. I was pleasantly surprised to hear a caller, Carolyn from Texas. You were wondering why people refer to `911' instead of `9-11.' Interesting call." So I was trying to date when I was first calling in to Mike's show, and I did a couple, a few guest spots on his show finally, and that is really what started me thinking that I would like to do radio. So Mike played a role in there. But anyway I remember when I called in it might have been one of the first times because Mike had gotten into the habit, you might remember Ray, of saying "911." A few people had done that, and he picked that up, so 9-11 was a big topic at that time. And he said "911." And I thought to myself that "911" was a bad way to say it because "911" is an emergency number that you call when there is a catastrophe. Whoever tried to show us that 9-11 was not a real catastrophe, you know, it was a fake false flag thing, it you call it "911" then you are kind of giving the idea that this was a real catastrophe and, what word am I trying to use, an emergency going on that needs attention, and so on.
Goodwin: Right.
Yeager: So I was making that point, and I remember Mike said, "Well, you might have a point there." While he was talking to me, he said "9-11," and after that he went back to "911." So that is how much influence you have when you try to change people. Anyway, this guy says, I will just read this and kind of compare it to you. "Anyway, I woke up in 1976. I have seen a lot of people come and go. I have let a lot of people go from my listening and reading list, such as Alex Jones, Rense, Jim Marrs. These people do serve a purpose, though. A few of their followers will dig a little deeper and begin to see the light. I started out reading my Dad's copies of National Review back in the 70's. Then Human Events, then the John Birch Society magazine. That took me to a John Birch Society book store. The two old ladies running the store talked me into volunteering there one day a week. They not only ordered books from JBS, but also from Liberty Bell Publishing, who reprinted The International Jew and sold such titles as Mein Kampf, Imperium, The Dispossessed Majority, Hoax of the Twentieth Century, et cetera. Once I got reading books like that, I was hooked." This man is a real nice fellow, and he was also a real follower of Mike's, and he got all those last emails that Mike sent out, which I did not get. They were asking for help, and so on. And also making some real big complaints. But after the news of Mike's passing came, he wrote me another email, and just said, "Now he is with the Ages." Then I wrote back to him and said, "Gee, you have such an interesting life, I am going to be doing a radio program --this was just the other day -- with Ray Goodwin. It would be nice if maybe you could come on for a little while and talk." But then he wrote he didn't want to do that. He said, "I did not know Mike personally any more than I know you." He said, "I received a nice note and complementary book a few years ago." Anyway, he felt it a lot. Like he said, he had made copies of a lot of Mike's radio programs for himself, and then he was listening to them when Mike was not broadcasting for a while. So a lot of people did that. A lot of people made copies of Mike's radio programs, which is a nice thing to do, and they would all have that now in case anything happened to them. But he ended what he said. He said, "I pray that Mike made it to heaven so he can sit down to the heavenly version of a nice vegetarian meal and mineral water with Adolf, with A.H., and the others whose earthly reputation Mike fought to uphold. With tears in my eyes I will now go and listen to Mein Bester Kamerad in memory of Michael Collins Piper." [50:09]
Goodwin: That is nice.
Yeager: That is nice. I thought I would read it to just indicate how many people were affected by Mike's work, and feel it so very strongly that he is gone. You know, so what we all notice, I think, it is not just my brilliance or anything, but as soon as somebody is gone for good, then all you see in them is what you liked, and all the good that they did. It always takes that, when someone can no longer come back and argue with you or say anything that might irritate you or talking about something. Once they are gone, you think "Oh Gosh!" You realize how valuable they were.
Goodwin: That is exactly right, and adding to that gentleman's fine statement there, Valhalla is the hall for warriors in the hereafter, and that is where Mike is in my mind. Because he was a fine, fine warrior for the truth and justice.
Yeager: He was also great fan of Adolf Hitler. So many of us are, and we share that. It gives us a certain outlook on life. As a lot of people know, because he wrote about it, Mike had a bust of Adolf Hitler in his apartment. We were talking about, we wondered what happened to it. [Laughter]. Who is going to get it? [Editor's Note: I think that Mike Piper sometimes associated himself with symbols of the Third Reich more for their contrarian value to establish himself as a completely independent, iconoclastic free thinker than to show some kind of fanatical devotion to the proverbial "Nazi agenda." For example, on page 61 of his book The Caiaphas Complex (May 2012), Piper talked about having a fantasy where he walked into an American high school class room to debunk an indoctrination program created by the Jewish ADL while wearing "a massive diamond ring with a stylized swastika, [that] glimmered on his hand", yet on page 85 of the same book he responded to a letter from a Christian minister by stating: "What are my ideas on government? I am a firm, hard-driving advocate of democracy within our Constitutional republican form of government. I believe in the right of the people to control their own destiny, through elected representatives, tempered by the reins of authority remaining, ultimately, in the hands of the people. This is Jeffersonian tradition, pure and simple. I believe that no special interest should dictate government policy in any way, shape, or form. I believe in AMERICA FIRST. I do not believe that America should be trying to reshape the world or to try to police the world. I am for protecting America's borders from terrorists and I believe that America should tend to its owns problems at home before trying to `fix' the world's problems." Also, in the biographical summary contained in his book Final Judgment, and also reproduced in the "biography" section of the web site mikepiperreport.com, Piper characterized himself as follows: "Widely known as a lover of dogs, cats and all animals and an unapologetic old-style American progressive in the LaFollette-Wheeler tradition, Piper considers the labels of `liberal' and `conservative' archaic, artificial and divisive, manipulative media buzzwords designed to suppress popular dissent and free inquiry. Once offered a lucrative assignment in a covert intelligence operation in Africa, Piper turned it down, preferring his independence — a position in keeping with his ethnic heritage: another of Piper's great-great-grandfathers was a full-blooded American Indian." The areas where Piper felt admiration for Hitler seemed to be in the line with the positives about Hitler described by Leon Degrelle, a former Waffen S.S. General and favorite of Hitler who found refuge in Spain after World War II. Degrelle created such books as Hitler: Born at Versailles and Hitler: Democrat which seriously challenged "comic book" views of Hitler, National Socialism, and the German people promoted by ruling Jewish establishments in places like New York City, Washington, D.C., Los Angeles, London, and Tel Aviv. The later work was reproduced in a series of installments in the historical magazine The Barnes Review, to which Piper was a frequent contributor.]
Goodwin: I am trying to track it down, Carolyn. I called Mark yesterday, and I got to his voicemail. You know he is probably quite busy, but I asked about that bust. I said, is that one of the things that Mike brought from D.C. out to Idaho, or do you know anything about it and if there are any plans on what is going to be done with it. I said I would just like to tell you I would love to have that, like if his brother is going to get it, and I can buy it from him, or if it is just going anywhere else, I would love to have it. So, you know I told Mark, I know you are quite busy, and this is a rather mundane thing, but if you have got that up there, I would like to have that. So I put in my claim for it. I don't know if it will come around. [Laughter]. [52:27]
Yeager: Right, right. Well you know you have to do that. You do have to do that. Because sometimes they will say, "Oh, I didn't know anyone wanted that. It just went off into the trash, or something." Well, I was going to say that Mike started his program, his broadcasting on Republic Broadcasting Network on Feb 1, 2006. I looked that up, and figured that was when I started listening to him. I called in as a caller a few times. It was probably in 2007 that I appeared a few times to be a guest on the whole show. I know the first one I did I talked about, had been reading and was so impressed by the book, Desperate Deception: British Covert Operations in the United States, 1939 to 1944. I told, I don't know if I told him about it or whatever, he said yes, call in, and we will do the whole program, because he loved that book. He really got into it. So I talked about that, and afterwards, it went over very well. I think it was after I came on a second time, and I talked about my book: Auschwitz: The Underground Guided Tour. Mike talked so much in the beginning that he realized he did not give me much time since they have all those commercials on RBN, and it was just an hour show. So he said, "Come back tomorrow, Carolyn, we will continue with this." So I came back the next night and then he said that after that, he said he got so many calls --I don't mean to be bragging, I am just trying trying to tell the way Mike is --
Goodwin: You're being honest.
Yeager: He said, he got so many comments about it, he said "Carolyn," -- and he said it on the air, "Carolyn, you are the most popular guest I have ever had." [Laughter]
Goodwin: Wow. That is wonderful.
Yeager: It was, it made me feel good. "I have never had anybody who was more popular than you." So I got a very good hearing from Mike, so did many people. He was a very generous and helpful person in every way. He really was indeed.
Goodwin: That's right, and you know I have written a lot of articles for The Barnes Review, but my biggest and best was the featured article in, I believe it was the Sept/October issue of 2007. They titled it "True Confessions of a Holocaust Denier," or something like this. I had written a very extensive article which they enhanced by adding some photographs and everything. Well, Mike had me on his show to talk about that article, and of course promoted it even more. We had callers call in, and thing like this. So he gave me the same kind of attention and breaks and notice that he gave you. Of course it was encouraging and all. Mike was saying, "Hey, Ray, you need to write more for the magazine," and such as that, so I did. I have had a few other articles published there. I am still listed as a member on their board of their contributing editors.
Yeager: I know. How did you get on that board, anyway?
Goodwin: They asked me.
Yeager: When was it that they asked you and put you on there?
Goodwin: Oh gosh, Carolyn, I think it was a number of years ago. It think it was maybe 2008.
Yeager: Oh, OK. Because I don't know, I just always saw you there.
Goodwin: Yes, it was a letter from, I can't remember if it was Paul Angel? It may have been, but he said, "Ray, you are talking about our board of contributing editors." He said, "We would love to make you one of them, and list you up there, and you could send more articles in to us because we really enjoy them. Would you be willing to let us list your name on that?" and I said, "Absolutely. Go right ahead, and I will be glad to contribute whenever I can." So that is how that came about. And all once again because of good old Mike. [56:20]
Yeager: Right, you know one thing I want to bring up, Ray, is that people are already saying, people who did not even know Mike, they just know his name, heard about it, know something about him, certainly some of his books and so on, but they say, they start talking right away that, "Oh, he was probably murdered. Are we sure he was not murdered?" This bothers me when people do that. He has only been gone a few days, and right away the first thing these people come up with is, "Was he murdered by the Mossad?" To me that is so ridiculous. Because why don't they at least wait a week or two or month before they start up with something like that if they want to bring it up, because no information has come out yet. There is no evidence for anything like that. I think that is a big mistake, and I already got into it. Somebody was saying that on a discussion group I am on, and I wrote to them privately, saying, "Why go there? Why say that? I think it is a bad idea."
Goodwin: That's right.
Yeager: But I just thought I would bring that up because I think it was a mistake.
Goodwin: It is my point. I do too, and like you I have got some of that too from some of those on my email list that we bandy about, and they are using expressions like "strange death" and "what really went on" and I am thinking, "Hold off on any of that stuff unless an autopsy shows some sort of foreign body or form of poison in his body or whatever. Unless there is some sort of proof that he did not die of natural causes, just keep that stuff to yourself."
Yeager: Yes, I don't think there will be an autopsy anyway because they have already said there were natural causes. There is no reason to suspect anything else unless someone would request, you know, someone that represents Mike, would request one. But I mean that is overdoing it, and it makes this whole movement look stupid. [58:30]
Goodwin: Yes, that is exactly right. It is a loss of credibility.
Yeager: Yes, well has something gone with Mike Piper's [death] -- What did Mike Piper represent? I don't have an answer for that, I am just coming up with a question. I have not had time to really think about it. Does he represent some kind of time or way of thinking that is passing by, things are changing? We have such a different group of what you might call truth-tellers today than the kind that he was. He was very much in touch with the politics, and thinking actually to affect and change the politics. America Free Press is that type of operation tied in with the politics of the United States and sometimes around the world. He had a vast knowledge of so much of this, and I don't see too many people writing like that, just combining the kinds of things that he combined.
Goodwin: That is a very good point. I have given some thought to that myself, Carolyn, and it is like I see a circle of what I prefer to call warriors with various talents and strengths in different areas, and I am talking about people like you. I am talking about Frederick Tobin, Dr. Robert Faurisson, people around the world including Mike in that circle. Including Willis Carto for all his many years, and other what I call patriots for our side in this circle. We are warriors fighting a battle. We gather as brethren in a circle, and when someone passes on, you know it is like all the knowledge, all the fighting ability that they had on our behalf is gone, and is going to be missed. But those that at are still in the circle, still fight, carry on the fight, step into the breach as best you can, and go on. We have lost one of our finest, and it is a sad thing, but it happens and it will continue to happen. You just hope there is somebody there to take up the shield and continue the fight, and that is the way I look at how Mike and his place in all of this was. He had much more knowledge than most of us in that circle, and he had a gift for expressing that knowledge and he is going to be sorely missed.
Yeager: He was quite unique. There is nobody like him. I mean you might not like him. You might just say he did not accomplish everything. But I am just saying he is totally unique and there is no nobody like him or who does the kind of work that he did, and has the kind of understanding of things that he had. What Mike brought to all of us, and whether there will actually be a legacy that matters and that means something, or if it will just get lost in the crowd or in the shuffle. What do you think? Do you have any thoughts on that?
Goodwin: Well, as far as Mike leaving a legacy, hey, that is in those books, it is in those recordings that are archived and things like this. You know, that is going to live for a good while. So as we both know, he is going to be terribly missed, but his impact was such that it won't be forgotten.
Yeager: Well, let's hope not, and certainly the one book Final Judgment is a major accomplishment that will stand the test of time, that is for sure. It will always remain up there. So that is something. Well, we will wait and see what else comes out. I guess it is kind of early. It took everybody by surprise and because of the nature of things, there is no information coming out. There is no family. He did not have any more family, I don't think. I don't know. Was his brother still alive?
Goodwin: Well apparently, I mean yes, because Mark Glenn, that is what Mark told me. He said, "I received this phone call, and he said it was Mike's brother. Mike's brother said "I just want to tell you about Mike," and Mark Glenn told me, he said, "I thought he was going to tell me that Mike moved into another apartment, there and all, which of course he said, "I already knew that." But he said his brother said Mike has died.
Yeager: So the police in Coer d'Alene called Mike's brother.
Goodwin: Yes.
Yeager: Well how did they know who Mike's brother was?
Goodwin: I have no idea.
Yeager: I thought they would have called Mark.
Goodwin: Yes, I agree, and you know Mike may have had a list in his bill fold or something or phone numbers and naturally if they see a brother's name, so-and-so Piper, that would have been the first one they would call because of being a relative. So that is the way I kind of think that went down.
Yeager: OK, well, we will wait to see further information. You did a good job, Ray, of doing justice here to our friend, Michael Collins Piper.
Goodwin: Well, so did you, so did you. Very much so.
Yeager: We will see, but we are sorry. We loved Michael and I probably didn't always treat him like I loved him, but see, there you go. It is always when people are gone you say, "Gee, I wish I would have spent a little more time there." But Mike and I, we were on the same wave length, I know that.
Goodwin: Sure.
Yeager: I am very, very happy to know that he appreciated me the way that he did. But I know he appreciated a lot of people. So Ray, I am going to let you give any final thoughts that you think you might have left out here.
Goodwin: Well I think we have covered our feelings about Michael Collins Piper from A to Z, in actuality. And yes, there are more things that we can recall about him and how he was such a positive and plus influence on those of us of a like mind, politically, historically and spiritually, and how valuable a person Mike Piper was to all of us. I think that people who listen to this message, a lot of what we say is going to resonate with them in such a positive manner. So I was very pleased that you came up with this idea that we do this, and I was very happy to be a part of this tribute. And there is going to be more tributes to Mike in the days and weeks to come, so I appreciate you allowing me to be a part of it, and appreciate what you have to say. It has been fun sharing all of this.
Yeager: Yes, yes. It was nice talking about it. Well thank you very much Ray, and thank you listeners. This is an edition of the Heretic's Hour, a special edition, taking place on June 4, 2015. This is Carolyn Yeager, thanks for listening to us, ladies and gentlemen. Remember Mike, so long for now.


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The Cowpens Flag, one of many circular star patterns used by "American Whigs" (or "Patriots")